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jbeinhor
01-25-2015, 07:19 PM
Hi all --

Thought I'd introduce myself per Tom's suggestion. I am a criminal defense attorney in NYC and aside from being interested in the subject matter myself, I've been seeing more cases involving laser jammers with clients (everything from run of the mill traffic stops gone very wrong to alleged large scale organizations), so Ive joined the board to learn a little more about the state of the technology.

My best,

JB

curmudgeon
01-25-2015, 07:32 PM
Welcome to the forum. This is the best place to get unbiased information on "parking sensors". I'm surprised that you're running into this as part of your defense practice..........they're not illegal in New York. Are you admitted to the bar in more than one state (or trying cases in federal court?)

Clint Eastwood
01-25-2015, 08:05 PM
Welcome aboard. Laser jammers are illegal in California, but they are under "equipment violation" status, so no one gets a moving or "driver license point worthy" citation. We've actually tested attorney's cars so equipped... :)

jbeinhor
01-25-2015, 08:44 PM
I'm surprised that you're running into this as part of your defense practice..........they're not illegal in New York. Are you admitted to the bar in more than one state (or trying cases in federal court?)

Thanks guys! As far as the jammers, it's not their legality, per se, but the interactions with police officers after spotting them on vehicles and using them as the basis for further investigation during a stop. It's crazy -- and isnt propper grounds for a search or further investigation -- but it happens.

RedRocket
01-25-2015, 09:03 PM
Hi Guy -
Welcome to RALF.

dinkydi
01-25-2015, 09:47 PM
welcome from Australia

NCTundra
01-28-2015, 12:16 PM
I'm new too.. But a hearty welcome to you and I am interested to learn more about any legal aspect you can present or inform us about. Understanding of course that every state is different, but the principles of legal search and justification, I would assume, are closely the same.

FJR1300
01-29-2015, 03:56 PM
Welcome to the forum.

It would be very helpful to hear about case law that you use in defense of illegal stops and or seizures. Also, any advice that you might want offer in regards to fighting these types of stops and related le interactions.

curmudgeon
01-29-2015, 04:09 PM
Welcome to the forum.

It would be very helpful to hear about case law that you use in defense of illegal stops and or seizures. Also, any advice that you might want offer in regards to fighting these types of stops and related le interactions.

I'm actually more interested in hearing what bs the cops are claiming to justify jammers being a cause for searches. (obviously without compromising any cases you are involved in, ethically or tactically)

ECMExpert
01-30-2015, 12:17 PM
Thanks guys! As far as the jammers, it's not their legality, per se, but the interactions with police officers after spotting them on vehicles and using them as the basis for further investigation during a stop. It's crazy -- and isnt propper grounds for a search or further investigation -- but it happens.

Counselor to Counselor. How is using a legal jammer a "basis" for further investigation on a stop. Basis for what??? I'd be filing motions to suppress on all of those stops since there's no statutory or constitutional basis for the search. OH, and they are NOT jammers BTW, they are parking sensors for tight spots in the streets and also in the garage.

ECMExpert
01-30-2015, 12:18 PM
I'm actually more interested in hearing what bs the cops are claiming to justify jammers being a cause for searches. (obviously without compromising any cases you are involved in, ethically or tactically)

Hey can't say names, BUT he can give circumstances and facts.

curmudgeon
01-30-2015, 01:52 PM
Hey can't say names, BUT he can give circumstances and facts.

He might not want to tip his hand on any specific strategies he's about to use in a public post though. remember IANAL, but this does interest me to the extent that he can share. (or you two are willing to discuss in the open) Especially since he practices in the Peoples Republic of New Yawk.

ECMExpert
01-30-2015, 04:44 PM
He might not want to tip his hand on any specific strategies he's about to use in a public post though. remember IANAL, but this does interest me to the extent that he can share. (or you two are willing to discuss in the open) Especially since he practices in the Peoples Republic of New Yawk.

Its all public. He doesn't need to breach any confidentiality, BUT I am questioning the use of jammers as a basis for a search of the vehicle and /or its occupants. So you're lidar cant get a reading on my car. How does that reach the level of probable cause or reasonable suspicion to search?? (yes, I understand that they can make sh^% up), BUT that ONLY goes so far. AND, how many guys who DO have parking sensors have really been stopped and cited?? Very few if any on here?? (unless they're RR clients) .

Hypothetical, I've got a matte black car with passive CMs and a V1 that's HOT on lidar. YOU can't get a reading on me and stop me anyway to give me another look. IN the absence of the smell of an illegal substance or otherwise horrible driving (DUI) , what could they possibly conjure UP that would give rise to a search (UNLESS you of course consent).

FJR1300
01-30-2015, 05:02 PM
Leo stops can be for any made up reason, I'm sure we all agree. So how do they then turn it into a search? Mostly they just ask, since that wouldn't cut it with most forum members, leo now uses your refusal to order up a K9 unit. Then the K9 alerts and voilą, they're in!

It's mainly a bluffing game, and you better believe that the Leo's estimation of whether or not you can lawyer up plays a part in who gets their rights violated. That's how the good old boys in the South do it any way.

So, how does the average citizen get good legal representation? That is the problem with rights; you need money to be able to use them.

ECMExpert
02-02-2015, 12:50 PM
Leo stops can be for any made up reason, I'm sure we all agree. So how do they then turn it into a search? Mostly they just ask, since that wouldn't cut it with most forum members, leo now uses your refusal to order up a K9 unit. Then the K9 alerts and voilą, they're in!

It's mainly a bluffing game, and you better believe that the Leo's estimation of whether or not you can lawyer up plays a part in who gets their rights violated. That's how the good old boys in the South do it any way.

So, how does the average citizen get good legal representation? That is the problem with rights; you need money to be able to use them.

Bingo, give this guy a prize!!! ^^^^^^^ Consent is the # 1 reason cited for a search despite there being no validity for it. If he's asking, he ain't got "nothing on you." I had a stop in Fl where they told the FHP to get a dog and they waited on the side of the road (being detained??) Dog comes up empty and they're looking at a lawsuit......................

Plus curmudgeon will tell you that a dog can and does false alert based on HOW its trained and HOW its handler is handling it.

curmudgeon
02-02-2015, 01:47 PM
Alerts (actually referred to as "indicators" in the trade) are rarely the mistake of the dog, BUT
the handler can either deliberately or subconsciously (by projected expectation) cause the dog to falsely indicate.
Handler can also just misread their dog

And LEO handlers are a mixed bag both as to competence and ethics (just like lawyers :boink:)