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View Full Version : GA Testing Group/RALETC LIDAR Testing - 11/9



shifter
11-09-2014, 08:40 PM
so we had our regular GA testing meet today and some of the guys from RALETC came down from NJ as well - YellowCab, Tom/BRD and SLO-STI made the trip and brought some of their toys as well. thanks again to them for taking their time to make the flight down and joining us. it was good to meet them as well as to see old faces and meet some other new guys as well. and of course, get some great testing done with the latest guns.

YellowCab did most of the shooting. we also had a drop-in appearance from RedAlert who brought his old Stalker v1 and tore some people up.

overall we found some install issues:
- Nick had his rear jammers facing skyward during the first gun test. he realigned them and you can see all further tests were solid. he also had the LF jammer head toed out, which caused PTs on the LF headlight.
- I had my rear jammers facing down a couple of degrees. this was mostly problematic at the end of the course where the road goes back uphill and the angle between the shooter and the car increases and that's where the PTs were happening on the tougher guns. I couldn't fix this today, but will be shortly.
- 64pvolvo1800 had rear head alignment issues as well that were evident throughout.

as far as guns go, ALP had no problem with the DET #5 or the Compact, outside of install issues.

the Tru SX was really showing it's strength, as usual, chewing through even the best installs at one point or another. even an install like Hussein's that was rock solid on the DET #5 had a hard time. the main points of issue were where the road has dips, bumps or changes elevation. there's a lot of that on this course and with the 400pps rate of the SX, it only takes an opening of milliseconds for it to get a reading. this is certainly going to be a very dangerous gun to watch for in the wild.

the PT distances are listed. where there's only one listed, there was only a PT at that specific distance.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/t72k4vf9tzp9wzz/ga-testing-results.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/t72k4vf9tzp9wzz/ga-testing-results.png

Clint Eastwood
11-09-2014, 09:24 PM
Looks like some vehicles did not get tested on all guns? Was the test done in gun-order as shown? Looks tidy on the right, but bloody red on the left, SX, DET 5.

Would also be nice to see the vehicle types for each... :eyebrows:

licwid
11-09-2014, 09:29 PM
Not everyone was able to stick around for all guns and not everyone was there on time for the first guns.

Yes. The DET and Truspeed SX tore up some installs

hussein
11-09-2014, 10:12 PM
At first glance, I am curious why Nick's rear is solid w/ the Tru SX, not w/ the DET #5, and for me it is opposite.

Edit: Nevermind, forgot about the alignment.

64pvolvo1800
11-10-2014, 03:49 AM
I only tested against a few guns and then stepped out of line to tweak my rears. They were taped only and had sagged badly. Retest was w taped fresh but I'm going to add the brackets too. May even go triple on the rear.

BestRadarDetectors
11-10-2014, 06:53 AM
ALso, I think Shifter has Trader listed wrong. I am pretty sure he was running an ALP 3 Head. 2 in the front and one in the Rear which is why his rear performed so bad.

Nicholat
11-10-2014, 07:03 AM
Shifter had me listed as K40, which is wrong. I am running old blinder M47 in front and Blinder M27 on the rear. I did not run new gun because I know my old unit will not even detect these new guns.

FJR1300
11-10-2014, 07:55 AM
If the list is being updated for accuracy, mine should show as ALP quad.

shifter
11-10-2014, 08:14 AM
updated!

NickCartunesAtl
11-10-2014, 09:17 AM
Thanks to Tom and Yellowcab for coming down. I enjoyed meeting both of them and picking their brains. Thanks to Shifter and GASpeed also. VERY Big Thanks to CRM for the help with the sensor realignment on the rear.

BestRadarDetectors
11-10-2014, 11:35 AM
We had many guns that that were not able to be tested but the most recent hardest guns were used first. We did have 3 Compacts there but not enough time to test them all so only one was used. Those that worried about the LZ1 results should not be concerned, That was one of the oldest stalker guns that I have ever seen and none are in use today with V1.x software. Its a nice find and is still a great guns to use to test systems but no chance you will see one in the wild. With the changes the manufactures make there is no need to tweak ago's for guns you will not see because tweaking for an old gun could adversely affect the great results on the current guns.

In regard to the SX this gun was the same gun that was used in the RALETC H2H tests and this course really is challenging because of how fast the TSS pulse rates are. If you heads are not level and you are on a course such as this when you are going down and up different elevations with dips and dumps in the road you only need to loose the beam for a fraction of a second to get a PT at the speeds of this gun. If you look at Nick's results in the the front did very well but the rear was destroyed at first. After correcting the rear sensors he did run again against the gun again and it was JTG.

JohnBoy
11-10-2014, 11:36 AM
My ride is now a Sequioa with 3 on the front.

SLO
11-10-2014, 02:20 PM
It was great meeting some of the new faces, seeing the regulars, and of course was great meeting Tom and YC. We had some fun on Saturday. Sucks my car was not back on the road for the testing. :(

It was also nice to meet fellow STI owner Hussein. He learned a little trick from me that'll help quite his STI down.

Police did end up showing up on site as we got called in on. Lucky I knew them and we were good to go for the rest of the day. Found out later the reason we were called on was because there is a cdc warehouse right there that is heavily guarded. They called us in for videoing which we were not doing. The police didn't even know what was in my hands. I had to tell them it was a laser. Lol.

Salty
11-10-2014, 02:44 PM
It was great meeting some of the new faces, seeing the regulars, and of course was great meeting Tom and YC. We had some fun on Saturday. Sucks my car was not back on the road for the testing. :(

It was also nice to meet fellow STI owner Hussein. He learned a little trick from me that'll help quite his STI down.

Police did end up showing up on site as we got called in on. Lucky I knew them and we were good to go for the rest of the day. Found out later the reason we were called on was because there is a cdc warehouse right there that is heavily guarded. They called us in for videoing which we were not doing. The police didn't even know what was in my hands. I had to tell them it was a laser. Lol.

Even if you were recording video, as long as you're in a public space, there's not a thing they could do about it.

FJR1300
11-10-2014, 03:02 PM
Sam makes different rules for protected areas now, all in the name of National Security. You might prevail in court, but who's got the time and money? And Sam knows this perfectly well.

Redman
11-10-2014, 04:31 PM
Good to see all. It was a nice day and I saw some great setups.

On the topic of cops:
Why did they turn their emergency lights on? Why did the one cop put on leather gloves(66 degrees) as to indicate that an escalation was possible?

Even if the call was photography of a guarded building it is still in public view from a public side walk/easement. The White House is guarded and my goodness aren't there a lot of pictures/video of it from the sidewalk. One has to admit that having a cop respond to a call regarding a 100% legal activity is troubling. A real response call needs to be something along the lines of "it looked like a gun and they were pointing it at (insert falsehood here)". That is a 100% acceptable response call. Someone stating that it looks like a video camera is what we call fair game from the sidewalk :)
Good thing you were there Slo.

Nicholat
11-10-2014, 04:39 PM
We were parking our car in there parking lot, They could of told us to leave, but they were cool thanks to SLO for handling it.

spankyaf
11-10-2014, 06:52 PM
Punch throughs on the bike with a quad? So the black helmet wasn't stealthy enough going away it appears. I was evaluating my rear head placement but am not going to move it now

FJR1300
11-10-2014, 07:18 PM
Shooters choice @ 30 mph, might not be so easy for leo that typically targets my plate first. If you're on a bike with clip ons you'd probably be much lower than I usually am.

Also my rear sensors are not at the most rearward point of the bike, so the upward path being somewhat restricted may be the helmet acquisition issue on my install.
But it is a consideration, I'm thinking about where I might put a 3rd rear head for helmet coverage. I need an even smaller remote head that I can put on the helmet :)

BestRadarDetectors
11-10-2014, 07:24 PM
We can only hope that G5 works.. Once its released we will test it throughly. If it works well you might be able to use an air brush and spray it on your helmets to get a nice even finish. We will have to wait and see.

Also targetting you 30 MPH is much easier than the 80+ you are normally travelling.

spankyaf
11-10-2014, 07:24 PM
Yeah ... But I'd like to see your two heads higher like under a Givi Rack

spankyaf
11-10-2014, 07:27 PM
We can only hope that G5 works.. Once its released we will test it throughly. If it works well you might be able to use an air brush and spray it on your helmets to get a nice even finish. We will have to wait and see.

Maybe but I've veiled the front of my matte black helmet and you guys got it in the NJ meet

FJR1300
11-10-2014, 07:30 PM
Yep, G5 is a possible solution I'd look at if it works out.

No racks or top cases for me, don't care for the looks or wind/ handling issues. Too much weight aft of the wheel is no bueno. It'd be fine if I were riding at lower speeds, but that isn't likely.

BestRadarDetectors
11-10-2014, 07:32 PM
Maybe but I've veiled the front of my matte black helmet and you guys got it in the NJ meet
Yeah... I remember that which is why I specified G5. From what VG has been saying G5 is supposed to be an improvement. We will have to wait and retest it.

oddpedestrian
11-10-2014, 08:16 PM
Anyone else doing the webinar Wednesday with Bob and Roy?

ECMExpert
11-10-2014, 08:41 PM
Anyone else doing the webinar Wednesday with Bob and Roy?


Bob is put there now with Roy doing some set up and tests with G5. He got there in LV last week and is now in AZ....

TurboDriver
11-10-2014, 09:24 PM
Oooooo.....I see a lot of red on some guns, are these placement issues, alignment issues, terrain or not really sure. They are green in some cases so what is the related factors to win or fail?

Thanks for the testing results and efforts of those involved!

languy99
11-11-2014, 06:27 AM
Cool I'm signed up for the webinar. It will be interesting to see the results


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BestRadarDetectors
11-11-2014, 07:07 AM
Oooooo.....I see a lot of red on some guns, are these placement issues, alignment issues, terrain or not really sure. They are green in some cases so what is the related factors to win or fail?

Thanks for the testing results and efforts of those involved!

Placement and course... Its described in several of the past posts in this thread.

BestRadarDetectors
11-11-2014, 10:31 AM
For those interested in the testing results and are concerned especially those on the other forums that were not even apart of the test let me clarify what testing is for. Testing is done to put installs against the worst possible situations against the hardest guns out there. If you want to see green across the board we could have brought the regular old guns that everyone tests with and even if your setup was not optimal the results would have been all green. What does doing that help anyone?

I could have brought a different SX like some members possess and results would have been much better also but we are not trying to hide anything, We are pushing the installs to their max to find holes and patch them up. Not only were the tests done several degrees off axis but this course has different elevations with some hills, dips and bumps and was roughly 2400FT. When shooting a very fast gun like the SX which runs at close to 4000 pulses per second its very easy when hitting a dip if your heads are not aligned perfectly to get out of the beam area and get a fast PT. If your heads are aligned perfectly you will have some give to accommodate these road conditions and still hold the view back to the gun but if you are off these road changes could very well put the beam back to the gun out of the range and cause a PT.

TurboDriver
11-11-2014, 02:05 PM
So are you saying alignment is more/most important vs placement?



-------------------------------------------------------

-- Edit- Ok, I just found it on the other thread.

Yellowcab
11-11-2014, 03:38 PM
For those interested in the testing results and are concerned especially those on the other forums that were not even apart of the test let me clarify what testing is for. Testing is done to put installs against the worst possible situations against the hardest guns out there. If you want to see green across the board we could have brought the regular old guns that everyone tests with and even if your setup was not optimal the results would have been all green. What does doing that help anyone?

I could have brought a different SX like some members possess and results would have been much better also but we are not trying to hide anything, We are pushing the installs to their max to find holes and patch them up. Not only were the tests done several degrees off axis but this course has different elevations with some hills, dips and bumps and was roughly 2400FT. When shooting a very fast gun like the SX which runs at close to 4000 pulses per second its very easy when hitting a dip if your heads are not aligned perfectly to get out of the beam area and get a fast PT. If your heads are aligned perfectly you will have some give to accommodate these road conditions and still hold the view back to the gun but if you are off these road changes could very well put the beam back to the gun out of the range and cause a PT.


This course is by far the toughest course I have ever seen in person or on video. The hills, being off axis, the bumps in the road and position of the sun all played huge factors in helping to exploit deficiencies in some of the installations. Heads being a few or sometimes much more degrees not level and misaligned heads lead to many PTs. I have seen this not only at this event, but at many others. I am almost to the point that I want to have two day events. Day one just to inspect, adjust and align sensors prior to testing. When installing my cars, it takes an hour or two just to level and align the heads.

With the newer guns alignment and being level is very important compared to the older LIDARs. This statement applies to both Laser Interceptor and ALP (When Blinder finally releases a firmware to jam these LIDARs I would expect this to apply to them too).

The proof of the alignment issue can be shown by the rear installation of Nick from CarTunes. He had a very minor misalignment on his rear install. By slightly adjusting the alignment and leveling the sensors he went from PT city to JFG. He got to see how, what many would think to be small insignificant misalignment, can allow PTs to happen. He also knows how important it is to be accuratley leveled and aligned. I highly recommend Nick to be involved in any jammer installation.

curmudgeon
11-11-2014, 04:34 PM
The proof of the alignment issue can be shown by the rear installation of Nick from CarTunes. He had a very minor misalignment on his rear install. By slightly adjusting the alignment and leveling the sensors he went from PT city to JFG. He got to see how, what many would think to be small insignificant misalignment, can allow PTs to happen. He also knows how important it is to be accuratley leveled and aligned. I highly recommend Nick to be involved in any jammer installation.

His work in the installation photos is beautiful. But now he KNOWS first hand the importance of positioning, leveling, etc. As in all things, personal experience always trumps anything you read or are told. His perfectionist & artistic nature obviously will take care of the rest. :thumb:

TurboDriver
11-11-2014, 07:36 PM
When installing my cars, it takes an hour or two just to level and align the heads.

Agreed. Mine was my first install but it took me over 5 hours to cut and set the heads in place, very tedious work. I have to say though they are almost as perfect to straight and level as they can get.

Sounds like a very tough course.

crm
11-12-2014, 10:06 AM
Thanks to GA Speed for setting up this test and for all who attended. It was good to see the familiar faces that I usually see at the GA testing but, it was also great to meet YC and BRD in person. Thanks to YC for doing most of the shooting and BRD for answering a lot of questions that we had. My car was a new install and done very quickly and I could only adjust the heads so much on site without tools. As others have said, this course will eat up jammers if they are not perfectly installed(straight and level) due to the terrain, it goes down then, has a dip in the middle, and then goes back up, making your jammers point in all different directions. You will usually not encounter this type of terrain when getting hit with laser. It really puts a lot of strain on any jammer install. If these test were done on a straight road or an incline up or down, either one, I have no doubt that it would have been mostly JTG,JFG on almost all of the ALP systems. This test is a worst case scenario.

kasher1979
11-12-2014, 12:34 PM
Thanks guys so much for the testing once again. Thank you all for doing all this work to keep us protected and keep it "real" in the process. That's our only protections from the crazy marketing schemes of others. Glad I am a member of the forums and know better thanks to you guys!

languy99
11-12-2014, 04:14 PM
Alignment is relative to what the car is doing. Until self leveling heads show up I level the heads as best as possible and know that dips or hills in the road can effect their jamming capabilities.


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TurboDriver
11-12-2014, 06:36 PM
Until self leveling heads show up I level the heads as best as possible and know that dips or hills in the road can effect their jamming capabilities.



Whoa..wait a minute, you might be on to something there. They now have self-leveling headlights on autos and brackets for lights. It might not be that hard to do. even if you had a mount with a set screw that would self level and then tighten down the screw to hold it in place.

2928




Sorry slightly off topic. Plus probably more pain than it's worth.

specifics
11-12-2014, 06:48 PM
Would have to be behind a lens of sorts right?

languy99
11-12-2014, 06:50 PM
It basically needs to be on a self leveling mount so no matter what the car does they stay level like a camera. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1oIX-7kL-c


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RigToFly01
11-12-2014, 07:11 PM
I really wish I could of come down for this meet. It looks like fun was had by all. Thank you for posting the results. After this meet and the last RALETC (http://www.raletc.com/) meet I have decided to make some steel brackets for my front install. The back is what it is. I can't really do anything but use tape to make the rear heads level. I started scoping it all today. I have not checked my heads with a level since the last meet and they were off today due to the fact that plastic has give to it. It's very clear that alignment is a great deal of the battle with the SX.

licwid
11-13-2014, 04:10 PM
It basically needs to be on a self leveling mount so no matter what the car does they stay level like a camera. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1oIX-7kL-c


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This sounds like a bad idea for mountainous regions. Nothing like jammers pointed int he sky or at the ground. Even in less extreme terrain this could quickly become problematic. What we really want is heads that self aim towards the threat :)

languy99
11-13-2014, 04:55 PM
This sounds like a bad idea for mountainous regions. Nothing like jammers pointed int he sky or at the ground. Even in less extreme terrain this could quickly become problematic. What we really want is heads that self aim towards the threat :)

Yup good luck with that. Active tracking, the heads would need multiple tiny sensors to sense the signal source and two motors to rotate on the axises.


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spankyaf
11-22-2014, 06:53 AM
I'm trying to read

licwid
12-02-2014, 05:42 PM
Yup good luck with that. Active tracking, the heads would need multiple tiny sensors to sense the signal source and two motors to rotate on the axises.


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Lol, yeah I realize it's not going to happen. Just pointing out how self leveling heads could be very bad :)